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Reviews for How To Seduce Your Daughter

By : MTLandLL

From ANON - WyldCard4 on September 06, 2013
Response to chapter two, How to Dominate your Daughter

Hm...

First of all, Holy Fuck this is hot.

Secondly...

This fic made me feel weirdly uncomfortable. Almost too real. I know that's ridiculous. It's not even a complaint, but something about the way this one was written made it feel, idk, edgy, threatening. The way Hanna didn't want to enter the house the day after the first spanking felt more like she was worried about sexual abuse. I think it has to do with the point in the story. This is the first scene we narrow in to more of Hanna's perspective, and right now we don't have as much evidence that she's into it. There's also showing the lifestyle of Ella and Aria, with the master and slave relationship continuing for a while. Something about exposing Aria in front of Ashley puts Ashley's pursuit of her daughter in a weird context. Add in the harsher tone of the domination fic rather than a seduction fic and it caused me to lose my erection, think for a moment, and then come to write this review.

I really don't know if anyone else who ever reads this story will have this reaction. The framing as erotica and your past stories give me a degree of trust. It just, well, makes me feel weird. I have no idea if this is intentional or not, but it is intentional this is probably the most interesting thing I've read in quite a while. You two would be subverting the genre if this is true.

It's also completely plausible that my feelings on this are entirely a result of stopping at this particular point in the fic. All of the above was written after just reading up to Hanna standing at the door.

Reading into the following conversation, this feeling of unease continues. Ashley starts putting ridiculously harsh restrictions on Hanna as a part of the seduction. The spanking is one thing, but forcing her to come right home from school is basically cutting off contact from her friends. Now, as Hanna's mother Ashley would have every right to do this, but as part of a pursuit of Ashley as an incestuous lover this is actually creepy and abusive. Ashley's right to control her daughter comes entirely from being her mother. If Ashley wants to be Hanna's mistress she would actually be giving up those kinds of rights. This is implicate in an incestuous relationship. There can't be these kinds of blurred lines. This strikes me as straight up sexual abuse, using her parental authority to exploit her daughter without her consent.

This isn't saying the fic isn't hot. It is. Actually, Ella's speech to Ashley was incredibly hot. There's just a presence here that seems lacking in the other stories I've read from you two. Even the actual incestuous rape story where Dawn was literally using magical force against her sister didn't make me this uncomfortable. There, I guess there was more acknowledgement over just how fucked up the situation was. Dawn was showed as being, well, mentally ill might be a strong word, but we saw that both Dawn and Buffy in that fanfic were depicted as being made "wrong" for the incestuous feelings, with the fantasy elements giving a bit of distance. This is much creepier. With, for example, Taylor it was clear that even if she was a bit sympathetic what she was doing was a BAD THING. The element of blackmail and choice in Taylor's Toys made it a very different kind of fic. Sure, it was still rape, but there's definitely a sliding scale for such things.

I can't say enough that if this is intentional than this is genius. Even if it isn't and it's all in my head I still respect the writing giving me all this food for thought. I just wanted to get all of this out there. It's also not a bad work of erotic literature from other perspectives as none of this diminishes the sexiness of the story. There are much, much more ethically challenged works of erotica out there.

I guess I actually want Hanna to call child services. I'm not ROOTING for Ashley to succeed here. Ashley doesn't seem to care about Hanna's consent in the matter at all. There's no real affection or empathy, just frustration and lust. It's not that all erotic stories have to be about love or need consent, god knows they don't, but the combination of factors is just, well, icky.

I'm glad this story gets to me. It's a much more interesting experience than otherwise, and for me I probably enjoy it more. I actually really like it when erotica crosses over into effective horror. That there's enough subtly in the story for me to draw a conclusion like this is wonderful. You two have written something very, very good.

This review rambles quite a bit as I'm writing it as I read the story. Right now I'm up to the following morning and the breakfast.

Okay, Ashley informing Hanna that she's going to punish her for leaving her pants in her room is just, well, unfair. It's controlling and taking a license with Hanna she really shouldn't. Ashley caused Hanna to leave her pants there, and there's no way that this would deserve anything close to a real punishment.

I want Hanna to break down to Spencer and have Spencer charge into the situation and make it all better. Heck, I have a weird desire to actually write that, though of course I wouldn't do it without permission and the desire will mostly likely pass. My desire to write fanfic almost always does. Hm, not sure if AFF.Net allows you to respond to reviews or not. I presume so as they tell me to write down my email, but maybe not.

The next night Hanna directly begs her mother not to spank her, both before and during. Given how sexual the spanking is both objectively given Hanna's nudity and subjectively for Ashley, well, Ashley actually should have negotiated, kept talking, something. It's not a shade of gray here. It is no less wrong than making out with Hanna against her will. It's inappropriate sexual touching. Sure, it would probably be disastrous for the whole domination plan not to act with authority, but that's really not a sufficient excuse.

You know, while having Spencer swoop in and save the day is probably wrong for the fic in every possible way, one problem with this series is that the Liars don't talk to each other. The show is built on their friendship and love for each other in the face of adversity. This is adversity. I could believe Aria's internal monologue, especially with everything happening so fast with plenty of new developments+it's Aria, but I'm not sure if Hanna has the, well, social skills and tact not to complain to her friends that Ashley's being a bitch. None of her friends are likely to jump to the "are you turned on by it" thing so her humiliation seems unlikely to shut her up, and with several days of "normal" without new developments I don't see her keeping quiet. The in-universe reasoning for this plan is that Hanna is rebellious and quite different from Aria. She should be more public about her problems, and if the show tells us anything it's that the Liars are unlikely to go to the police/child services for trouble, and Hanna has to trust that they wouldn't want her mom arrested. Yes, her friends do have other stuff going on, but they're four of the best friends in the world, they'd make time.

Even, say, going to Aria would probably get Aria on her side. Just because Aria enjoys her sexual BDSM relationship with her mother doesn't mean she would support one in all cases, especially if Hanna is weirded out by it. I do appreciate that you cover it with a line of dialog, but this does seem inconsistent to me. It wouldn't even kill the story dead if it was handled right. Say, have A be making a big enough move that Hanna keeps her mother shut for good reason, or A threatens her about it, or she does bring it up but does it in a context that doesn't ring alarm bells before Hanna is dominated.

Ashley getting a call about Mona, well, this is interesting.

Ashley is actually meddling with forces she does not understand. Hanna in no way meaningfully consented in this scene due to A related blackmail. Ashley doesn't know this, and I find this in character for the setup on all fronts, but this is beyond terrible for everyone involved. In the other scenes, well, even if Ashley was skeevy Hanna could have backed out and gotten help. Now Hanna has to choose between sexual abuse by her mother and putting both of them, and everyone, in danger.

There's also a problem with upping the intensity in this particular scene. This is the point where Hanna gave the least consent so far, and this is also a scene where Ashley restraints and gags Hanna. This rightfully should go horribly wrong. Hanna is doing things for reasons that the domination guide didn't anticipate. The psychology is all wrong. Normally the instructions are a perfectly acceptable plot device, but they only work if they understand the psychology involved. When Hanna is doing something to protect herself and her mother that should mess things up badly. She's not lying for normal reasons, so what's going on inside her head can't be what is intended.

I am talking psychology out of my ass here, but a single dominating force is more unbalancing than two. Two should actually ground her more in reality, as their stories and demands don't match up. When A is a large factor in this stage of progression it should be meaningful given this plot device. This is especially true as this is demarcated as a change in kind from the other punishments. Restraints, horse whips, ball gags, these are clearly a sexual escalation at a highly unstable point. This is a point where Ashley's plan should go badly wrong. Even if Hanna is in denial it shouldn't produce the desired effect.

"There wasn't even any build up, her Mom starting with the brutal pace and then sticking to it, the pain so bad that Hanna silently swore she would do anything to avoid this again. Anything."

It's in the text that this is a change in kind for Hanna, and so it has to be a crucial stage for whatever psychological magic is being used.

When Hanna's in the cellar her thoughts should be changed from what is predicted because of just how different the thing with A and Mona is. Her thoughts can't be focused in ways to break her down in quite the same way because she should be thinking about Mona and A and just how unfair everything is. The instructions can't predict that Hanna was lying and taking the punishment to protect people from physical danger and severe social woes as that is not why teenagers usually keep secrets.

Hence, when Hanna submits to being her mother's bitch her thoughts can't be all about her mother. They can't be based on the dominance and sexuality of Ashley Marrin. There needs to be an "ohmygodAwillhurtmeifIdon'tdothis" running through her head, making her submission mean something Ashley didn't anticipate or want. Things should go completely off the rails at this stage even if Ashley has succeeded in making Hanna want a sexual relationship and fear Ashley hurting her. Hanna's trapped in an inescapable trap. She should be bolting to Spencer in school the next day and weeping in the bathroom, even if her weeping does involve liking it and how it made the whole thing worse.

The whole speech is also exactly the wrong thing to say in this context.

"Or I can untie you and you can leave this room and we�ll not mention it again. But we both know that without Mommy�s hand you�ll end up on the streets or in jail,"

This could and probably should scare her into submitting, but it shouldn't be a meaningful one. It puts pressure on Hanna to get along with it only while Ashley has power over her. Honestly, Spencer's more scary than Ashley ever was or could be. The control isn't as tight as Ashley assumes because the Liars are pretty badass in their own right and in ways Ashley can't anticipate. Even if Ashley really does only care about control she doesn't have as much as she thinks she does. Hanna has a strong support network.

So, either from the psychology of the instructions or from the context of Ashley's control it's not believable that she could take down Hanna for long in the way she expects.

Meanwhile, in the first chapter, How to Seduce Your Daughter, the instructions did not have any conflicting factors. The seduction would and could make Aria want it because they were operating correctly.

Also, this is probably not reducible to the complaint that A was involved in this specific turning point. The things that make Ashley mad at her daughter, the context of her wanting to make her a slave, are all tied up in A. A needs to be involved in this story because that is why Ashley wants to do this to her daughter, but can't be involved in the story because A provides motivations Ashley does not understand that make her daughter act like she does. Ashley does not understand Hanna, and so this can't be stable and cannot solve anything at least as long as A does things to Hanna. A can be quiet, but unless this series resolves A in a worthwhile fashion than it will never be wholly believable that Ashley and Hanna will be stable. Part of Hanna's motivation will always be fear of someone else hurting her/them, which will mean there's always someone else who matters more than Ashley in Hanna's day to day life.

Sure, A could love Hanna being Ashley's fucktoy and work to continue it. A Helping Hand is a workable alternate universe with a similar premise. However, this is not established in the setting and probably conflicts with the normal A of Pretty Little Liars. As written this universe is largely consistent with PLL. I don't know about any future plans to continue this story, but even if A supports them the relationship will never truly make Hanna Ashley's bitch, something that the story's title and premise seem to intend.

I don't know how either of you relate to your stories as works of fiction. If you consider your jobs to be creating something sexy and simply accept that there's a certain irrationality to the premise, and don't want to tie it into this problem, more power to the both of you. I like this fic and I love both of your work. This review is predicated on one or both of you being interested in this kind of thinking and is mostly my own way of working through your product. I prefer treating these as fascinating, literary stories but even though I can go on and on and on about these things I will admit the pornography is far more central to the plot.

I sincerely want to compliment you both that my greatest concerns are in depth character motivations in this fic. Almost no other fanfic would make me thing like this. I'd say this is probably the most thought provoking fanfic I've read in a very long time.

Even though I spent a ridiculously long time writing about why the ending did not work, I still enjoyed it tremendously as a piece of erotica. It was amazingly sexy and quite entertaining. One of the sexiest things I've read in months! I was very happy to have read it. The fact that there was a plot whole did not mean I couldn't appreciate the work written as intended. All of these kinks work for me and I love how this story is written. The plot whole is a technical one, and my earlier concerns do not interfere with the erotica once it's in full sway and we have Hanna's point of view where she has consented and accepted the relationship.

Thank you both very much. I loved this story so much. I love the writing both of you put out and I sincerely hope it continues long into the future. Please continue writing amazing stories. I enjoyed your story on many levels and hope that other people do too.

Best wishes,
WyldCard4
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From Oric13 on July 31, 2013
I liked the 2nd chapter more than the first, especially the way it started.
Although I enjoyed Ashley sexually dominating her rebellious daughter, it's kinda ridiculous how Hanna suddenly became turned into her mother's willing sub after that thrashing with the riding crop. Sorry, but that wasn't believable at all. Its like you just skipped several chapters of Hanna being gradually tamed/mind twisted into becoming her mom's bitch because you wanted to get to the "good part" of Ashley buggering her lovely daughter's tight teen ass.
Anyhow, overall still a hot read and I'm looking forward to these hot MILFs swapping daughters for a day.

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From Oric13 on April 21, 2013
Very out-of-character. Aria is so fashion obsessed that she obviously wouldn't let anyone else decide what she wants to wear. ;)
Still, Ella making her cute daughter her bitch makes for a fun read.
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